Lauren Meyer: 0:02 Deliverability is not just an off and on switch. I like to think of it more as kind of like the dashboard of a plane, where there’s just lots of different little dials and things that you can kind of tweak to fly better. So it really is that but it’s just... Know that you’re going to have to keep improving. You can’t just kind of stick with what works and go with that for the next couple of years. It’s probably not going to continue to work for long.
Hillel Berg: 0:25 Today in Inboxing, Lauren Meyer, EVP of product marketing and brand strategy for SocketLabs. And we’re live. Welcome to another episode of Inboxing. Inboxing is the podcast all about email. And today we have a very special guest, Lauren Meyer from Kickbox. That’s where she is now, but she’s got a long history in email. We’ll let her talk about it a little bit in just a second. Anyways, without any further ado, here’s Lauren Meyer. Welcome, Lauren.
Lauren Meyer: 1:05 Hello, Hello. How are you?
Hillel Berg: 1:07 I’m good. Thank God. Thank God, things are good. How are things over there on the other side of the world?
Lauren Meyer: 1:12 They are doing great. Yeah, it’s nice and sunny here in California, so I really can’t complain too much.
Hillel Berg: 1:17 All right. It’s raining here today in Israel, which is a good thing because it only rains in the winter, and if it doesn’t rain, we’re in big trouble. We had a good November, [and] December, but it’s been really... it’s just been gorgeous. It’s been spring the last three weeks, which is good but we need more rain. So it’s good to see it raining again. And it’s supposed to be more winter like for the next two weeks at least. So, it’s good. Changing of weather is definitely a good thing. I know in LA, there’s no real seasons from what I understand.
Lauren Meyer: 1:44 There are. There’s a little bit of a season. So right now it’s January. And so the plants have actually... a lot of the flowers that kind of bloom in the spring and are around for the summer have kind of died off. So there is a little bit of a really vibrant and colorful spring that comes in a couple of months. So for now it’s pretty warm though, so it’s 73 degrees here in [inaudible 02:03].
Hillel Berg: 2:06 In the summer though, it doesn’t get boiling though, right?
Lauren Meyer: 2:10 No.
Hillel Berg: 2:10 [inaudible 02:10]
Lauren Meyer: 2:13 I’m about an hour and a half north of LA. So it’s kind of just this sleepy town up in Ventura, California. And so I think, a heat wave here is about 85 degrees, which is really [inaudible 02:22]
Hillel Berg: 2:22 Kind of fine.
Lauren Meyer: 2:24 [inaudible 02:23]
Hillel Berg: 2:24 Yeah. Perfect. All right. So let’s get started. So got a new feature here. What got you into email marketing?
Lauren Meyer: 2:32 Oh, wow. Okay, well, I guess, honestly, I fell into email marketing a lot like other people in the industry have. I was working for a company that was selling mutual funds. And they were trying to get me to study for my series seven license, and I just kept falling asleep in my books. And so I realized it was time to move into a different industry. So I kind of just went looking for things that were interesting to me and things that I thought that I was capable of doing. And kind of landed in an affiliate marketer company. And I was a QC specialist, a quality control specialist, for the first couple of years. But I really kind of learned a lot as I grew through the different careers. And I think what’s really kept me in email is truly the fact that the industry is just constantly advancing, and evolving, and changing. And things that were once kind of seen as maybe [inaudible 03:16] are now considered industry best practice, right? So it’s something that we’re [inaudible 03:22]. Things change, [and] things evolve. So there’s always something new to learn. There’s someone new to share that knowledge with, and I think that’s what I find the most exciting about email. So that’s why I’m sticking with it.
Hillel Berg: 3:31 All right. Thank you for that. That was great. What do you see in your inbox that really... it’s like, “Oh, I can’t believe it.?”
Lauren Meyer: 3:38 Nice. [Inaudible 03:38] starting with the bad news first, that’s usually how I like to play it. So this is cool. Yeah, so I think there’s a couple of things that really kind of set me when I see things in my inbox. The first thing I would say is, is when people are using deceptive tactics to sort of enforce engagement. So things like when you have that little RE for reply, or the foreword within a subject line. So this really kind of just makes me wonder, “Am I responding to emails in my sleep?” Like, when did I have that communication [inaudible 04:05]? So by the time I actually open that message, which only takes a few seconds, my brain has gone in 15 different directions, and I’m trying to figure out what’s going on. So by the time I actually open it, and realize that it’s just sort of like a sales promotion, or somebody following up with me, chances are, I’m probably just going to mark that message as spam because I’m just so frustrated with the fact that it wasn’t what I thought it was going to be. Right? So I think that deceptive, sort of subject line is really really something I don’t like. Sort of along the same vein of cold emails, in general, I really dislike those. But I understand that those are a big part of certain people’s brand. So I think for me, it’s particularly when people send that cold email, it doesn’t really land. I don’t open. I don’t respond to it. And then they kind of just keep going sort of bumping it to the top of my inbox without any additional context that kind of helps me be interested in that offer.
Lauren Meyer: 4:51 So it’s kind of like if the first time didn’t land well, and I didn’t respond, why do you think that just simply putting it in front of me is going to do something different? It doesn’t. In fact, if anything, it just makes me a little angrier and a little bit more likely to mark that message as spam. Which, of course, when you’re in a cold email business, you already have enough people marking you as spam, [and] enough issues with deliverability. So I think that’s one of those... if you’re going to do that cold email, really find a way to make that email about me, [and] about what you can do for me, [and] how you have a solution that’s going to help make my day easier, not just get me to write you some crazy, [or] angry response [inaudible 05:23]. It’s really not your goal, I’m sure. And I think that along the same lines of all of that is, again, things that sort of just kind of make me want to mark something as spam is like brands that are driving that fake urgency to motivate me to engage. Right? So an example of this might be a retail brand, who is constantly warning me that the sale is ending, and this is my last chance to get that. But they’ve already trained me to know that, that sale is going to be either extended because it always is or perhaps this one ends, but then there’s another 20% discount that’s coming tomorrow or next week or something like that, right? So I think all of these tactics, all of them, sort of give you this kind of small lift and open rates, and maybe you have a couple of extra sales coming in at first, but recipients are quickly going to lose interest in that or that kind of like really quick tactic that you’re doing isn’t going to work. And in the end, deliverability is going to suffer and so is that brand loyalty that you’re trying to build with those email recipients. So those are the things that I really hate.
Hillel Berg: 6:20 Right. It’s a joke. Growing up, we always saw... it was a retailer. I won’t say the name, but it was just... it seemed like every day was a one day sale. It was one day, one day, one day sale. [Inaudible 06:31]
Lauren Meyer: 6:32 Yeah. What’s interesting about that, as well, I feel like I’ve read articles about this, where people are kind of like, if you’re constantly teaching people that stuff is going to be on sale, what’s their incentive to actually ever buy something at the full retail value? In fact, you might be teaching them that your product is less valuable than you say it is and that it’s always going to be on sale. And so they kind of discount how much they find interest in your brand. Or they’re just like, “Well, I know that that thing is always 50 bucks. But if I wait, it’s actually going to be $25.99.” Right? So you really need to figure out what your long term play is. Yes, you get some quick wins with those quick sales, but that long term strategy is really not going to sustain.
Hillel Berg: 7:11 Right. That’s a really good point. All right, in your life as an email marketer, what was your biggest mistake?
Lauren Meyer: 7:16 Oh, my biggest mistake? Well, I have to say that I haven’t actually been the one who’s kind of hitting send for a couple of years. So my role typically, now is more kind of to consult with customers who are having deliverability issues. So I think the biggest mistake that I see on that side... so it’s not really like, “Oh, I’ve got typos, or I forgot to test a campaign.” It’s more when I’m kind of firing off recommendations for fixing their issue, before I’ve gathered enough facts to really understand what might be driving that issue. So when it comes to deliverability, you typically need to ask a lot of questions about their email program first, right? So you need to understand the scope of the issue. Is it something that just started? Is it something that’s kind of been trending downwards over time? How did you find this issue? Right? Is this something that you had a customer complain? Is this were a big portion of your list is actually getting blocked by a certain provider? So it really depends on kind of what that scope is and sort of what might have been the trigger. Did you change anything within your email program, [or] your segmentation? Did you introduce a new list or a new type of list collection or something like that? So it’s kind of like, when you’re shooting from the hip with your recommendations, that kind of leads to clients that are taking actions that maybe are costing them money and resources and taking a lot of time for them to implement. Maybe they even have to get buy in from their executive team to even take that chance. So if you’re wrong, those recommendations really... they waste their time and [inaudible 08:35] a deliverability issues.
Lauren Meyer: 8:36 So there’s a lot of stress involved in that time waste that you’re that you’re dealing with their... But they’re also... You’re hurting your own credibility. So if you’re sticking with them, and you’re going to be their consultant in the long run... Let’s hope you still have a job after this all kind of settled, right? Because especially if you are a consultant, this is what you’re making your money on. But you really need to kind of keep that level of confidence with those customers very high. I think my biggest mistake that I’ve learned from this is to do your research first, [and] ask those questions that you need to. If there’s any diagnostic test that you need to run. So if you’re saying, “Okay, you’re saying you’re going to the spam folder at Gmail? Can you send some of those messages to my Gmail test accounts, and let’s see where they land?” Basic tests like that. If you wait, and then you’re asking to do that, a week or two into the process, people will lose their minds. So you’ll miss your chance to do that. And you’ve also kind of just wasted a lot of time. Again, that stress level is high. So just be thoughtful in the recommendations that you’re giving to clients. And just always ask the questions first. Don’t just be like, “I think it’s this. Go try that.” [Inaudible 09:36] Like, just stop right there. Right? So that’s the one thing I’ve learned through a lot of painful experiences.
Hillel Berg: 9:42 Is there like an internal checklist marketers should be going through in terms to avoid becoming spam?
Lauren Meyer: 9:48 Yeah, I mean, I think the best tip I can give for how you can kind of pair your deliverability with your email goals and avoid spam is really just to think about your goals with email. Like how are you building your lists? Who are you adding to your list? And are they people that are actually going to want to engage with the emails that you’re sending, [and] the content that you’re providing, with your brand in general, right? Even if they’re not opening those messages. Again, back to that idea of a retail client who is just sending me discount codes. Maybe I only shop at that store once per year. And so I’m not opening and clicking your mail, but I still see your from address in my inbox and so there’s that brand presence. There’s that thought of keeping people in mind. So I think it really is just important to pair your goals with email with the metrics that you’re tracking. And really just focusing on... not just say what’s going well. A high open rate is great, is that leading to whatever call to action or conversion that you’re looking for? So if that’s as basic as a purchase, if that’s booking a meeting with the sales team, [or] getting them to upgrade from a free account to a paid account. Whatever that is, consider that each step, right? First, you have to get the message into their inbox, then you’ve got to get them to open that message, then you have to get them to click the message, and then when they land on your landing page, or whatever that call to action is they have to then take that step, whatever you’re looking for them to do. So I think it’s seeing all of those things as one bigger picture, as opposed to just kind of focusing on one key metric, and thinking that that’s what’s going to lead to ultimate success for your brand.
Hillel Berg: 11:14 Okay, all right. That’s a really good segue to your top five email [inaudible 11:18] tips.
Lauren Meyer: 11:19 Oh, okay. All right. Oh, gosh, I have so many. I can only get five, really? [Inaudible 11:23] I’m just kidding. I’m sure I can whittle it down. So let’s see. I think we’ll start at the beginning of what should be the beginning of your relationship with your email audience, which is get permission before you’re sending emails to people. So again, I get that cold email is a reality, and people need to do that. But really try to find a way to bring them to your website. Get them to download a white paper. Get them to sign up for an event. Whatever it is, that lets them give you their email address or say, “I’m okay with hearing from your brand.” Because my inbox is overrun with so many different messages. I sign up for everything, because I love to see what people are doing. But the inbox is a very intimate place, right? You only have a finite amount of time in your day, and you want to make sure that you’re sending to people who actually are open to hearing from you, as opposed to just trying to kind of grab everybody, and then you end up with a lot of spam complaints. So getting permission is really the start. And that also gives you a chance to set expectations with your recipients. So tell them how often you’re going to send to them or what kind of contents they can expect from you. Things like that, I think it really goes a long way to just setting yourself up for success. So that’s my top tip.
Lauren Meyer: 12:31 Data quality is a main driver for deliverability issues, because it’s not just about, is this a valid or an invalid address, it’s about is that person there for the right reasons, are they going to ultimately engage with your brand, which helps deliverability and ultimately convert to making money for your business. Which is I think, probably everybody’s goal at the end of the day, right? So permission, permission, permission, [and] keep going. The other one I would say is authenticate all of the email that you’re sending. So this really helps so that the mailbox providers like Gmail and Hotmail that you’re sending to, as well as your email recipients can have greater confidence in the mail being legitimate. The fact that it’s actually coming from you, as you say it is. Authentication is not something that’s going to get you into the inbox on its own, it’s just one step in the process. But it really does serve as that kind of form of ID to say, I am a legitimate sender, [and] I am who I say I am. So I would say focus on maybe SPF or DKIM first, and those are two different types of authentication that are pretty standard at this point. But they really help protect your brand from being spoofed. So people pretending to be you, right? If your PayPal, everybody’s pretending to be PayPal to try [inaudible 13:36] scams. So lock yourself down, DKIM is more focused on making sure that the message content hasn’t really changed in transit, right? So if I hit send, there’s nobody that intercepted that message and maybe changed the links to be something malicious, or added some content of their own that is kind of misleading, or something. So DKIM is helpful for that. So those two are really standard.
Lauren Meyer: 13:56 We actually did a blog post on my own website kickbox.com, where we were talking about authentication pretty deep. So you can go check that out if you’re interested in learning more about how you can implement those different forums. Third tip for you guys would be to follow your engagement metrics to understand what your audience likes, [and] don’t like as well, right? You want to look at both the positive engagement metrics like your opens and clicks, as well as the negative ones like spam complaints and unsubscribes. Because you could have a really aggressive subject line that leads to a nice increase in open rates. But if people then get that message, and they’re like, “Wait, you said it was free, but it’s free with purchase of a $100. That’s not free.” That’s going to lead to a negative reaction, even though there is that positive front end reaction, right? [Inaudible 14:40] that bigger picture, because especially, spam complaints are very, very damaging for your deliverability.
Lauren Meyer: 14:46 So open rates are great. But again, make sure that you’re connecting with people, you’re setting those expectations and really kind of following the metrics to really make sure that the thing that you think is going to work is actually what’s working with your audience. There’s number three. Let’s see, number four would be really I guess piggybacking off of those monitoring of your metrics is to use what you learn from that data to send more valued content. So really focus in on what your audience seems to like, and what they don’t like. So the ones that have the highest open rates, that’s awesome. But also look for the campaign’s that have the highest complaint rates or unsubscribe rates, [and] things like that, because it really is that full metric. You could also consider segmentation if you have multiple types of emails that you’re sending, or maybe you have different customer profiles within your list. If you’ve got someone who’s just buying stuff, [or] if you’ve got someone who’s interested in your thought leadership content, separate those mail streams, and maybe say, “We’re going to send you a recap, because we know that you like the sales stuff, but then we’ll send you a once per week recap or once per month recap of that thought leadership as well.” So you can still know that we’re doing that, but really kind of try to understand the ins and outs of your audience a little bit more.
Lauren Meyer: 15:54 And then I guess my last one on the back end, just as important as getting permission, is making it really easy for people to get off the ride if they want to. So make the flat unsubscribe process really easy. Because if you don’t... there’s all these tactics where you can make that unsubscribe point really, really tiny, so it’s impossible to see. Or maybe even use the same font color as your background. And so it’s kind of there from a legal perspective, but it’s hidden. All of these things basically just mean that messages are going to get marked as spam instead, when someone wants to get off your list. And that is, again, much more damaging for deliverability. But it’s also a lot easier to do in most cases, because that spam button is right at the top of somebody’s inbox, right? So just make that process as simple as possible. And then use that information that you’re getting, if you see that your unsubscribe rates are high. Figure out why. What is it about someone who signed up for your brand that made them decide to jump ship really, really quickly? There’s something there that you can think and optimize. So those are my top tips, I guess
Hillel Berg: 16:51 Those are really, really great. [Inaudible 16:53] follow ups in. One; just in terms of unsubscribe. There was something that I think Elliott Ross from action rocket posted a few months ago, maybe. I don’t know, time is... It’s Corona time, so who knows when it was. But it was just the worst unsubscribe page ever. It was so confusing. It was like you’re opting in and you’re opting out. It was like, what... Like it looked like opting out was really opting in. It was just totally confusing.
Lauren Meyer: 17:19 Yeah.
Hillel Berg: 17:19 Have you seen that?
Lauren Meyer: 17:22 [inaudible 17:20]. Actually in that case, I mean, that’s not just confusing, you might actually be stepping into what’s not legal. Because first of all, the unsubscribe process needs to be just as easy as the signup process. But if you’re just popping your email address into something to sign up, you shouldn’t have to log into an account or even type your own email address to unsubscribe, it should really be even simpler to get off the list. But even still, if people are confused about if it’s a yes or no. Am I opting back in? Am I opting out? What am I doing? That actually could get you in legal trouble one day.
Hillel Berg: 17:52 Yeah, no, definitely. And the other part of it, I was wondering is what an acceptable amount of spam is? Even good brands gets called spam sometimes.
Lauren Meyer: 18:01 Yeah.
Hillel Berg: 18:02 What’s acceptable? And when does it become a problem?
Lauren Meyer: 18:05 Yeah. So I think there’s kind of two definitions of sort of what’s acceptable in spam, right? So there’s messages that are just going to the spam folder, which are... that’s kind of very hard to sort of measure because we don’t get feedback from the mailbox providers that say, “Hey, 50% went to the inbox and 50% went to spam. And here’s what you should do about that.” But when it comes to spam complaint rates, consider that not every mailbox provider is giving you feedback. For example, Gmail does not tell you if Lauren kickbox goes and Mark something as spam. Gmail doesn’t tell me [or] doesn’t tell the sender specifically that I have marked that message as spam. They kind of give you these overall rates. But I would say the good spam complaint rates tends to be about 0.02%, honestly, even 0.01%. I know that sounds just tiny. A lot of times with an ESP within their kind of acceptable use policy, they will mention one that’s a 0.1% or maybe a 0.08%. But that’s the rate that they’re saying [to] kind of restrict your sending. They’re going to put you in a timeout, and [inaudible 19:03] that is not going to equate to inbox placement. Mailbox providers are really truly looking to keep those user complaints as low as possible. They want to make that experience within their inbox as awesome as possible for their users. And when people are marking as spam, that’s such a clear indication that something didn’t land the way that it should have. Right?
Hillel Berg: 19:23 Right. I’m sorry, I might be going a little in a different direction. But I was wondering, in terms of... because you have this sort of inside information, how do providers like MailChimp [inaudible 19:32] and all those... How did they differentiate? Are they sending emails all from the same SMTP, or ASMIP? [Inaudible 19:41] brand they have an IP?
Lauren Meyer: 19:42 It depends. Yeah, I mean, there are certain centers, usually centers that have larger volumes of emails, and maybe that send more frequently that are on dedicated IP’s. And that’s a great setup because once you... the more you can kind of isolate your sending from all the other people in the world, the better. Right? Mailbox providers love, just having it be very clear to them who the sender is, what they’re sending, whether their users like it or not, all that kind of good stuff. Right? So the more you can kind of isolate that and just say, “Yep, it’s me. I’m Lauren. I’ve got this one IP, [and] this one domain. This is all mine.” Right? That is awesome. But there’s a lot of other senders who don’t send often enough. Maybe imagine a company who only sends quarterly statements or only sends once a month. Mailbox providers really need more frequency of sending to kind of create a sender reputation [or] to understand what your sender reputation is. Are you a good sender? Are you bad? Should you be trusted or not? And so that’s where I think your, the shared IP situation really comes into play, where you can have tens, or hundreds of customers that are tiny... sending tons of messages a day, or just sending very infrequently, being able to come together to kind of create that critical mass that leads to having a sender reputation.
Lauren Meyer: 20:49 So that’s where a lot of different ESP’s will let customers kind of decide on their own, do you want shared or do you want dedicated? They’ll provide guidance on what they think is the best fit for you. And then oftentimes, they’ll have multiple different kind of shared pools with their system that maybe are reserved for really good senders. I think MailChimp actually will sort of prioritize. They actually have a very highly engaged recipients pool of IP’s that they use. So they kind of split up your list, as you’re sending and say, “These recipients, we can see that they’re engaging quite often, so we send them from our best IP’s that have a really great reputation. The other mail that you’re sending, that’s going to less engaged people tends to maybe go from different...” So it really depends on the ESP, as to kind of how they set that up, and what that looks like based on their infrastructure. Honestly, there’s lots of different options, but from a high level, I’d say it’s either dedicated IP or a shared IP setup.
Hillel Berg: 21:37 Okay, and would that be a reason to use an SMTP? Like, sendgrid kind of set up? You get your own IP?
Lauren Meyer: 21:46 Yeah, I think there’s lots of different types of mail as well. There’s the transactional side of mail, which is password resets and purchase confirmations, and stuff that... it’s sort of triggered by an action taken by the recipient, right? So if I request a password reset, I’m expecting to receive that mail in my inbox. So that stuff tends to be kind of separate from the marketing initiatives, which is the newsletters and more kind of sales focused emails. Typically ones that are not a one to one message like they are with transactional, it’s more of a one to many type of setup with much, much higher volumes. And so I think it really depends on what type of email you’re sending, who you’re sending to, how important it is, [and] how many different mail streams you have. There’s a lot to kind of consider as you’re picking your provider, and you’re picking what that setup looks like from an IP in a domain perspective.
Hillel Berg: 22:33 Okay. Alright. Thanks for that. Yeah. Okay. So one of the top pitfalls [inaudible 22:38]. You probably talk with people that have fallen into those pits.
Lauren Meyer: 22:42 I have. That’s where I live most of the time, actually. I think, I mentioned already data quality is really, really important when it comes to your email deliverability. And by data quality, again, I’m not just talking about the invalid addresses or validate, it really is if those people on your list are there for the right reasons, if they’re engaging with the mail positively, [and] if they’re not engaging negatively very often. So along those lines, one of the biggest pitfalls I’ve seen is using growth hacks to build your lists super quickly. So purchased and scraped lists should always be avoided, because even if you’re building your list... Honestly, those tend to have very high bounce rates. But more importantly, those people have never heard of your brand, or if they’ve heard of your brand, they know they didn’t sign up for your brand. So that’s essentially the same as you sending a cold email to them, but you don’t see it that way. You’re like, “Well, I’ve got this list of people.” And so you’re not focusing on that value prop. You’re not giving them a lot of value in that cold email. You’re just kind of adding them to your business as usual type of newsletter. So avoid those kind of really quick shortcuts to building your list.
Lauren Meyer: 23:45 But even if you’re building your list with permission, I would say sign up sources, like a sweepstakes, for example, can lead to a list where recipients just really don’t care about the emails that you’re sending. Right? And this is going to lead to really low engagement, which can hurt your chances of hitting the inbox in the future. So, imagine if you’re a travel brand, and you have a million dollar sweepstakes in a trip to Italy, or something, that’s awesome. But if people aren’t aware of the fact that you’re going to send them emails after the fact, they don’t care because they haven’t won the free giveaway. And so then it’s just dead weight on your list. So really just try to pair your list collection practices. I know it’s painful and sometimes slow to build your list the right way with people who genuinely want to be there, but I guarantee it’s going to lead to higher quality engagements and just much more conversion for your brand. So I think that’s one. There really is no such thing as a hack within email, especially within deliverability, you’ve got to kind of come at it the right way. [Inaudible 24:43] really not a lot of shortcuts, unfortunately. So I think that’s one big pitfall, is assuming that you can kind of just very quickly just see success with very little effort from your side and very little thought.
Lauren Meyer: 24:54 The second pitfall that I see is kind of like you’re blindly running your email program without kind of reviewing your stats regularly. Honestly, I get it because marketing people are busy. Oftentimes email is just one of the things that they’re doing in their day. Deliverability is something... it’s an afterthought. It’s sort of like, unless I know messages are going to the spam folder or getting blocked, I don’t have time to think about this. And I definitely don’t have time to learn about this. But I think that’s where you want to have just that basic, high level understanding of kind of like what do my stats look like today. What do those trend lines look like? Am I trending up? Am I trending down? Are things kind of staying the same, which is totally fine. Oftentimes, I think that’s when you don’t... when you’re not watching, that is where you’re going to say, “Oh, my gosh, I had this deliverability issue come out of nowhere.” And you’re going to be blindsided by it. But really, it’s something that probably has been kind of bubbling under the surface for quite a while and it’s getting worse, and it’s getting worse. And the longer you wait, the bigger changes you need to make to kind of fix that. So I think just have that basic understanding. And if you don’t understand the stuff yourself, we are in this awesome industry, where there are people who are willing to jump on a call with you quickly. We’ve got the email geeks slack, where you can ask questions to... I don’t even know how many... More than 10,000 people in that group at this point. Build your own network, [and] read a bunch of blogs. There’s so much information that’s out there to give you just a basic understanding of kind of what’s happening. So don’t just run around blindly, please. And then I think the last one is sort of just assuming that what worked yesterday is going to continue to work today and tomorrow. Deliverability, I would even say recipient engagement and recipient expectations with the email industry as a whole, none of these are static things. They’re all changing and evolving all the time.
Lauren Meyer: 26:32 And so I think, you really need to be watching your data, as I mentioned before. Following the industry trends to kind of ensure that you’re continuing to hit the inbox. But I would say, a good example of this is that recipient engagement has become a much bigger deal over the past several years. Because anti-spam filters are just... they’re getting more sophisticated. They’re getting better at looking at recipients at the recipient level, as opposed to just saying, “Well, you sent 200 people and 10 of them marked spam. And so that’s too high.” Right? That stuff is still there. Those basic metrics still matter. But you really need to kind of focus on continuing to have success, continuing to watch your progress and testing things. Right? Testing to see if you can even do better, because there’s always room for optimization. Deliverability is not just an off and on switch. I like to think of it more as kind of like the dashboard of a plane where there’s just lots of different little dials and things that you can kind of tweak to fly better. So it really is that. So I think it’s just... Know that you’re going to have to keep improving. You can’t just kind of stick with what works and go with that for the next couple of years. It’s probably not going to continue to work for long.
Hillel Berg: 27:36 Right. I was wondering on... it’s really talking from a client perspective. They get a lead through some kind of offer. But then they see that guy didn’t even open the email, and they haven’t opened any emails in the last six sends. Is it a good time to cut them off? Just say, “Okay, this guy is not really a subscriber.”
Lauren Meyer: 27:53 It really depends on what you’re.... Again, not say what your goal of email is, but what kind of what are your challenges. I actually was just having a conversation with this really smart guy named Dela Quist. If you have not heard of him, he is the founder of a company called Alchemy Worx. And his whole thing is, keep sending to recipients. Send to them more and more often. And the more often you send to them, the more value you’re going to get out of those subscribers, even if they’re not opening and clicking. He did some research that kind of showed that if a recipient’s not even on our list... Let’s say they make $117 off of that person, the lifetime value of that person. If you send them emails, even if they’ve never ever opened or clicked, he was saying that the value for a specific client was up to $400. Okay, so almost more than doubled. If you have a recipient who is on your list and is engaging with your emails, that value tends to be around $700. So there is kind of like this difference. Obviously, the people that are engaging with your email are the most valuable, but even if... To my point as well, right? I have retail brands that I don’t shop at very often. I haven’t opened an email from them and in a year, but if I go shop with their brand next week, you better believe I’m going to go check the emails, and see if I’ve got a discount code. And then even just seeing that from address in my inbox, keeps them at the top of my mind and kind of just helps, right?
Lauren Meyer: 29:07 Imagine, the same with a billboard. If you’re driving on the road, and you kind of see a sign for a certain brands, it’s a passive thing, you’re not really thinking about it, but yet, it’s there. You saw it, [and] you remember that brand. So I think that’s... if you’re not facing deliverability issues, you should definitely just kind of keep sending to people as often as you can. But you have to figure out that frequency. Because if you’ve got an active segment where there’s people who are opening every single daily email that you send, they should have a different frequency [and] a different kind of tactic that you’re approaching them with than somebody who opens once a year or never. Right? Those people maybe don’t need to hear from you every single day. They can hear from you weekly. And that’s where the mailbox providers like Gmail, [or] Hotmail, these guys, they’re looking at those stats, and they’re trying to figure out is your mail wanted by a lot of our users or not? And one of the signals... a lot of the signals they’re looking at are engagement. Are you opening and clicking? Are you moving messages to folders? Are you complaining about them? Are you deleting them without opening or letting it sink further into your inbox? So things that we can’t always see on the marketer side, but they matter. And so I think it’s nailing that mix of, I’m contacting as many people as often as possible but I’m also not doing it in a way that the mailbox providers are now damaging my reputation and sending messages to the spam folder. So I think that’s... Again, look at your stats, be monitoring that, and then being as aggressive as you can, without kind of upsetting the applecart, if you will.
Hillel Berg: 30:29 Okay. I was wondering do ESP’s track how long an email’s open. Does [inaudible 30:35] anything?
Lauren Meyer: 30:37 It’s hard to say. Mailbox providers don’t really kind of tell us what metrics specifically they are always monitoring. I would say there definitely are ones who probably are looking at that kind of thing. But honestly, I don’t have any insight into that. I know, oftentimes, on the marketer side, we’re using pixels and other kind of tools within the email to track the read rate, or how long someone’s been hovering over a certain spot, or that heatmap kind of thing. Right? So I would imagine they do have some sort of visibility into it, it’s going to look different than what we do, but they’ve probably got some signal that is sort of tied to that kind of behavior.
Hillel Berg: 31:11 Okay. Maybe testing tips or recommendations.
Lauren Meyer: 31:14 Okay, I would say, obviously, A/B tests are a great thing for everybody to be doing. I think, especially if you have sort of a static list. Let’s say, if you do have a newsletter that you send on a regular basis to a consistent audience, I would say that’s a great place to be doing A/B testing. But honestly, any kind of test is great. And really, I think A/B tests are wonderful for subject lines, because it really does help you figure out what’s going to resonate best with your audience. What’s going to get them to that next step, right? Because again, did it go to the inbox? Did they open it? Then did they click? Then did they convert? So it’s all of these things. The subject line is very much important for that. I would say, also be testing your from addresses. I’ve seen some within my inbox that are just very clear. Imagine Walmart or Target, or one of those big brands, that’s a very recognizable from address. Other people kind of go with ones where they’re trying to be more personal. So it’s maybe Ally from the pet store. I don’t know - Whatever brand it is. And so you just have to consider, are people going to recognize that? Is that going to make them have a connection to your brand? Or are they going to be like, “Who is Ally? I keep getting messages from this person. I don’t know any Ally. Who has this?” Right? So I think you kind of have to follow the data points. But subject line testing is really a great way to kind of do that. So I think when you’re doing your testing, just be very deliberate, in the sense that you don’t wat to be testing... There is such thing as A/X testing, where you can test multiple variants at a certain time. But you want to make sure that your test is basic enough that you can know what it was that drove the difference. Right? Because if you’re like, “Oh, we did a different from name, and a different subject line, and a different call to action, [inaudible 32:49] actually the thing that moves the needle on your performance. Right? You don’t really know. And so then you’re kind of stuck with, “Okay, well, now what do we do with that information?” So being clear, and very thoughtful with how you do your testing is helpful, but also make sure you have big enough sample sizes to be meaningful. Don’t just run it off of [inaudible 33:07] to 10 people and seem like 6 people [Inaudible 33:10]. That’s not really... That’s sort of anecdotal evidence. Right? So I think it really is just making sure that you’ve got the proper kind of volume to be testing and that’s okay. If you have a small list, it doesn’t mean you can’t do A/B testing, it just means you might need to run that test multiple times or overtime, and let it kind of run for a bit longer to sort of see what that success is going to look like.
Hillel Berg: 33:31 Alright, thanks for that. Do you have any favorite brands?
Lauren Meyer: 33:34 Favorite brands? I mean, honestly, I get so much email. And honestly, I feel like I more just get cranky about a lot of it. But one brand that I’ve personally been loving, and maybe this is just because I have been busy is Morning Brew. And so if you’re not familiar with their newsletter, it essentially is just sort of a daily rundown of all of the things that are sort of happening in the news. They’ve got a... A part of the topic kind of focuses on stock tickers and what’s happening there. But they don’t just say, “Hey, here’s some links to different articles.” They give you a little summary. A little synopsis of their own, of kind of like what’s going on with that specific topic, as well as linking to very good resources about it. There’s usually something that’s really fun in there when they do partner marketing or partner advertising within those different campaigns. It’s very well done. It fits in. These advertisers that they choose seem to fit very well in with the audience that they’re having. So it doesn’t feel super salesy. And then they refer. They’ve got a great referral program, where they’re incentivizing people with swag, if they invite other people to sign up [and] things like that. Honestly, they have grown their list size to one and a half million people in less than five years. And I think they were actually just acquired this year as well. So they’re really doing well. But I think for me, the reason I like it so much, it doesn’t just make my life easier, because I can quickly kind of catch up on the news and the things that I maybe might have missed but it’s also funny. There’s personality to it. So it just enriches my life every single day. I know it’s going to be in my inbox. And if it’s not there, even if I don’t read it every single day, I know it’s going to be there. And I know I can rely on it. And every single time I know I’m going to get some kind of value out of that. So I think that’s really the go to newsletter that I’ve been really digging in recently.
Hillel Berg: 35:13 That’s really cool. And it’s just... good for them. Thinking of such a simple idea. Let’s build an email that people read every day. Like a morning newspaper kind of thing. And drink it over coffee, we’ll call morning brew.
Lauren Meyer: 35:28 Yeah, and it’s amazing how often.... Even before I signed up. Because I was like, “I get so many emails, I don’t need another one.” My coworker in my last role used to kind of forward articles from Morning Brew to me at least once every couple of weeks. Like, “Hey, I saw this one. And I thought of you because it’s something... You’ve got kids or whatever.” And so it starts conversations. It makes you kind of just more knowledgeable about what’s going on in the world. But it just really adds... in my [inaudible 35:51] I love to say, provide value to your subscribers in whatever way you can, and whatever that means, based on your business. But they really have kind of nailed that, in my perspective.
Hillel Berg: 36:02 That’s really cool. What opportunities do you think marketers are missing out on when it comes to email?
Lauren Meyer: 36:09 Well, I mean, I feel like there are some email marketers who are kind of coming into our industry, into the email industry, from other industries. So for example, maybe like direct marketing. And they’re kind of just trying to apply whatever works within that industry or that field, to email. Just fitting that square peg into a round hole, if you will. And it’s the same way that you would probably adjust your messaging on social platforms, right? The message that you put on LinkedIn, probably looks different than what you’re doing on Facebook, or on Twitter, which is very much short form. So you want to adjust your strategy to really focus on kind of what works with email specifically, and kind of how you can get that to work in. I think there’s other marketers that are kind of... they’re just juggling so many different tasks and responsibilities. And they really just don’t have that time to understand the nuances of email. And the fact that it really is hard. Right? There’s a lot to learn. There’s deliverability, which is just the ultimate kind of black box, big question mark, what’s going on, [and] gray area, all over the place. You’ve got to think about the strategy, the coding, the design, authentication pieces, and the technical bits of infrastructure all of it matters when it comes to hitting the inbox. It’s this ultimate equation. And so I think, by taking the time to understand that all of those various factors do impact the overall success of your program. It’s important. Doesn’t mean you have to be a subject matter expert in all of it. Hopefully, you’ve got a small team, or you have people that can kind of help you with that. But really being equipped to sort of take that holistic approach is something that a lot of email marketers are not currently doing. They’re kind of just... they’re very focused on one metric or one project, or they’re kind of just... Not to say, getting to be tone deaf with the recipients, but they’re just... it’s become just this thing that you just kind of [inaudible 37:55] Yeah, so I think just taking that step back to kind of have that emotional intelligence of like, “Look, I’m sending emails to humans. Humans that have other things going on of their day. And so I need to really provide value and can I find a way to connect with them.” And that’s so hard when you’re sending to tens or hundreds or thousands, or millions of people. But I think that’s where you really need to kind of take that holistic approach and figure out the bigger way to do it. And really understand how email marketing can work with other marketing channels to provide that full experience, right? Email marketing should never be kind of used within a vacuum. It does have other touch points. Right? If you’re doing TV commercials, if you’ve got billboards, if you’re doing - I don’t know - whatever you’re doing, your brand, it’s not just an email, it’s so much more than that. So I think that’s the... marketers that kind of miss that aspect. [They] tend to just get stuck in the small day to day stuff and kind of don’t get the bigger picture of kind of what’s going on with email.
Hillel Berg: 38:48 Okay, taking a macro look at it.
Lauren Meyer: 38:50 Yeah.
Hillel Berg: 38:51 Okay, going back to deliverability. What do you think the big misconceptions are about deliverability?
Lauren Meyer: 38:57 Oh, my gosh, do we have... How much time do we have? Because I think we can do an entire show on this.
Hillel Berg: 39:02 [inaudible 39:02] about 40 minutes. The record so far is an hour and 15 minutes, but you don’t have to make a new record. But if you want we can.
Lauren Meyer: 39:10 Right. Well, I’m just joking anyway. Honestly, there are so many misconceptions. There’s just a lot of misinformation that goes around in our industry. And I think there’s reasons for it. There’s a lot of reasons for it. Sometimes it’s just... you’re testing your brand new marketing manager who’s not really been in email before. It’s her first job out of college with, “Hey, you’re going to go write a blog post about this topic with email.” So those people maybe are googling other articles and kind of trying to write without being that subject matter experts. I think sometimes it comes from that. Other times, it could just come from a vendor’s goals. Maybe they’re trying to kind of push a specific product and so they’ve kind of come up with a best practice that’s sort of circling around whatever offering they have or something like that. So it really... there’s a lot and then honestly, sometimes it’s just people are saying things that they think make sense, but they’re not backed by data. So imagine if... when Google tabs was introduced many, many years ago, I think back in 2015, everybody freaked out. Because they were like, “Oh my gosh, now my promotional mail is stuck in with all these other promotional things. I wanted to be in with grandma and your sister’s emails.” But when people did studies, they found a lot of information to support the fact that you actually have higher conversion rates when you’re in the promotions tab then because they will have higher intent to purchase something. They’re in the right mind frame to kind of receive promotional messages and be kind of pitched to, if you will. So I think the fact that people don’t have access to data, I think is a big one [inaudible 40:34]. But I’ll just kind of run through a couple. And honestly, my company actually is about to release a blog post tomorrow with 21 different email misconceptions. And I’ve spent a lot of time trying to figure out which ones to do. Go to kickbox.com tomorrow and check that out, because I think there’ll be more. But from a high level, I’ll say, one; email is not dead. In fact, it’s very much alive and doing very, very well, and has a great return on investment compared to other digital channels. I just mentioned the fact that landing in the Gmail promotions tab is not a bad thing. In fact, it tends to be a good thing for deliverability, as well as for your conversion rates.
Hillel Berg: 41:08 You are not the spam folder if you are in the promotions box.
Lauren Meyer: 41:10 Exactly. Yeah, [inaudible 41:12] changing... There’s this common misconception that if you damage your IP reputation, basically just replace your IP or maybe switch to a different ESP, and that’s going to solve your issue. That doesn’t work anymore, because now mailbox providers have really moved beyond just looking at the IP reputation, now they’re looking at domain reputation. And tens or hundreds of different signals that are related to all of the internet activity that you’re doing within your email purview. So it’s a lot harder, if you will, to sort of outrun your bad history. Right? Like, if you’re that new kid, and you move to a new school, because you got suspended from your last school, you have a fresh start. And if you take that chance, and really improve your reputation, and you become a better email sender, awesome. You’re going to have success, right? But if you just move to that new school, and then go back to starting food fights, and getting in trouble, and being late for class, you’re going to get expelled all over again. Right? You’re going to see the same pattern repeat. It might take a little bit longer. So I think that’s... stop trying to outrun your issues, just embrace the fact that you really need to kind of just own your reputation, and be doing the right things, and doing right by your subscribers. I think that’s the bigger picture. Along the lines of spammy content, I’ll just kind of say, simple things like just including the word free or something else that’s kind of been claimed as a spammy word, is not going to ultimately send [inaudible 42:32]. It is a part of it. There are some things... I think there is a provider, maybe it was [inaudible 42:37] or someone. They actually filter messages to the spam folder, because an emoji is in that subject line, right? So something very basic, and you’re like, “Oh, man, wow.” So know that about that destination, if you send a lot of mail to them. But really, there are so many factors to deliverability that if your central mission is fantastic, if your audience loves your content, [and] if you actually are giving away something that’s free, [inaudible 43:00]
Hillel Berg: 43:01 You can use all caps, [and] emojis. Doesn’t matter, [inaudible 43:06]
Lauren Meyer: 43:07 Exactly. As long as email audience likes it, and mailbox providers can see that within the interactions that they’re having, that’s really what’s going to help you. So spammy words, if they have their place, but they are of much smaller part, it really is more about the reaction that your recipients have to those words, as opposed to just the actual words themselves. So those are the big ones. I would say, just to end here, note that inbox placement cannot be guaranteed. Anybody who claims is... [Inaudible 43:34] case. I mean, I know every ESP wants to say we’ve got a deliverability rate that tends to be 95 or higher, or 99%. That’s awesome. That is just an estimate. If a list verification company is telling you, they can clean up your list, and remove invalids, and then all of a sudden, magically get that to the inbox. It’s not nearly that simple. I wish it was. Inbox placement really is something you have to earn and continue to earn. And continue to keep that that trust that the mailbox providers have with you. So please focus on your data and be a good email citizen, I guess.
Hillel Berg: 44:06 Can email criminals reform? If you messed up your email... You have a horrible IP reputation, and you’ve been doing everything terribly. But now you really want to create a real company and really do things the right way.
Lauren Meyer: 44:17 Yeah.
Hillel Berg: 44:18 Yeah, you really can?
Lauren Meyer: 44:19 You absolutely can. And it’s one of those... IP reputations, [and] sender reputations can absolutely be turned around, just like your own personal brand reputation, right? Like, you could have been a total jerk when you were a kid, but you become a nice person, and you start treating people well, that reputation kind of changes. Right? And then people see you in a different light. And so if you’ve done something very small, right? Let’s say, if you have a pretty good sender reputation, and you purchase a list and you have some bad data and you generate a bunch of complaints and high bounce rates and things [like that]. That’s sort of a one-time offense. If you go back to being a good sender, you’re going to rid this ship and eventually mailbox providers will kind of forgive you. Right? For the short term, but the more bad instances you have, the more history you have racking up, the deeper you’re kind of digging yourself into that hole, the longer it’s going to take to get out of it. And so that’s where in certain cases I would say, if you have really ruined your domain reputation, your IP reputation, your ESP is now rate limiting you and I guess threatening to spend you, perhaps it’s time to move on to a new location and have a fresh start. But the key is when you make that fresh start, you really need to start with the basics and build up the right way the next time. Learn your lesson. Don’t just unplug from here and plug in somewhere else with that same bad practice because it’s not going to work.
Hillel Berg: 45:33 Alright, I think that’s it. I mean, unless you want to keep going. Yeah, well, I think we’ve covered this one so I don’t think we need to do this anymore. But I think at this point, we can just say thank you so much for coming.
Lauren Meyer: 45:44 Of course.
Hillel Berg: 45:45 We’ve learned a lot. We went through a lot of stuff, and it’s been really great. So thank you for coming. Good luck at kickbox and everyone can check them out at kickbox.com. And maybe we’ll have you back at some point, but maybe not. But anyway, good luck on the rest of the road.
Lauren Meyer: 46:03 You too. Thanks for having me [inaudible 46:05]
Hillel Berg: 46:05 Absolutely. And that’s our show tonight. Thank you so much for tuning into Inbox. This has been Episode Four. We’ll see you next week.